Attempting to correct sync with lemmy.world

McConnell on Ukraine proxy war: "We haven’t lost a single American in this war. Most of the money that we spend, is spent on replenishing weapons, so it’s actually employing people here."[paraphrased] ( edition.cnn.com )

Mitch McConell says the quiet part out loud.

Exact full quote from CNN:

“People think, increasingly it appears, that we shouldn’t be doing this. Well, let me start by saying we haven’t lost a single American in this war,” McConnell said. “Most of the money that we spend related to Ukraine is actually spent in the US, replenishing weapons, more modern weapons. So it’s actually employing people here and improving our own military for what may lie ahead.”

cross-posted from: lemm.ee/post/4085063

smallerdemon ,
@smallerdemon@lemmy.ml avatar

As an American, fuck them Russian oligarch pig fuckers. Sent money and weapons to Ukraine.

astral_avocado ,
@astral_avocado@programming.dev avatar

Fuck russia but do we really need to be supporting a proxy war at the moment? Why is Ukraine so important to us?

seejur , (edited )

Because Russia fucked around during the elections, and how are in the find out phase.

On a more serious note, it’s because it sends a message to many other nations (China for example) that invading have consequences. A good example of this was Hitler and Chamberlain: appeasement did not stop, but actually made worse, the situation. It costs less this way in the long term

Dangeresque ,

Also Russia is spending so much money in Ukraine which means they hav less money to fuck with elections. I have seen talk of republican campaigns having serious funding problems now. Hmm why might that be? Russia has been incredibly effective at funding disinformation and promoting right wing fascist candidates compared to what they have spent.

KerPop47 ,

Because we promised to help them, and Ukraine deserves independence.

We supply Saudi Arabia with missiles that hit school busses, we should at least also help protect a democracy from being re-colonized.

Putin’s Russia is cruel and exploitative. The best thing we can do as a world leader is help a smaller country stand up for itself.

astral_avocado ,
@astral_avocado@programming.dev avatar

We’re not a world police and shouldn’t be acting like this and we very suspiciously only help very specific countries enforce their independence

ToxicDivinity ,
@ToxicDivinity@hexbear.net avatar

We supply Saudi Arabia with missiles that hit school busses

Maybe we’re the baddies?

radiofreeval ,
@radiofreeval@hexbear.net avatar

In this war anything is a military target. Apartments, schools, gas stations and civilian infrastructure get bombed. We are going to see more school busses.

Grownbravy ,
@Grownbravy@hexbear.net avatar

Werent a bunch of reddit brigaders obliterated forgetting to turn off location services posting from their top secret training facility?

astral_avocado ,
@astral_avocado@programming.dev avatar

I don’t know were they?

rusticus ,

To all the people not wanting to extend the proxy war against the war crime committing Russians: what do you expect will happen if you stop funding Ukraine defense against war crimes? You think Russians just go home? You think China and North Korea don’t look around at adjacent territories licking their lips? Do you understand what deterrence means?

Before you respond like a tankie that America is an imperialist shithole, America is not the one (this time) committing war crimes, RUSSIA is.

Redcat , (edited )

what do you expect will happen if you stop funding Ukraine defense against war crimes? You think Russians just go home?

The Russian Ukrainians will be able to stay in their homes without fear of genocide by the NATO backed government.

Eccitaze ,
@Eccitaze@yiffit.net avatar

And fuck all the other Ukrainians that will get genocided by putin, right?

TheAnonymouseJoker ,

Evidence for your extravagant CIA shill claims?

AngryCommieKender ,

Well at least not in Ukraine. I’m sure we are committing some war crimes quietly somewhere else. Seems like we can’t stop doing that.

I agree with your comment by the way, I’m just further shitting down that argument as well.

We know our government sucks. We’re working on making it work the way it was supposed to. Section 1983 has to be rectified.

PP_BOY_ ,
@PP_BOY_@lemmy.world avatar

AngryCommieKender

Opinion immediately discarded.

AngryCommieKender ,

I seriously doubt you know what a Kender is.

Chapo_is_Red ,

You think China and North Korea don’t look around at adjacent territories licking their lips

North Korea only borders SK and China. It has never invaded another country. China hasn’t invaded another country since 1979 and since then Vietnam and China have peacefully resolved their land border dispute.

Before you respond like a tankie that America is an imperialist shithole, America is not the one (this time) committing war crimes, RUSSIA is.

America is committing war crimes right now. The imposition of collective punishment is a war crime. America’s comprehensive sanctions which it has applied to several countries constitute collective punishment and are hence a war crime.

Condemning the Russian invasion shouldn’t mean white washing the world’s largest perpetrator of state terrorism.

WarmSoda ,

Just a minor correction for you, NK also borders Russia.

KerPop47 ,

Sanctions are not collective punishment, and war crimes only exist in the context of war.

Also, the DPRK did invade the RoK, that’s what started the Korean War.

Also also, China has reserved a spot on its equivalent of the National Mall for when it takes Taiwan back.

China definitely cares about how well Russia’s invasion of Ukraine goes, because of the many geopolitical parallels it would have with it invading Taiwan.

Flinch ,
@Flinch@hexbear.net avatar

What are sanctions if not collective punishment? The entire point of sanctions is to make the average person’s life worse, with the idea that this will somehow cause them to rise up and overthrow their government. That’s the very definition of collective punishment.

alcoholicorn , (edited )

Sanctions are not collective punishment

Not according to the state department. They themselves say the reason they use sanctions is to cause as much pain to the people as possible so they’re more likely to overthrow the gov’t, or failing that, be softer targets for military intervention.

DPRK did invade the RoK

The RoK was doing genocide and had been recognized as the gov’t of all of Korea in the UN due to the US’s machinations, a gov’t whose election was rigged in the south, and absent in the north. The elections the north arranged were of course, ignored.

The DPRK saw that their position was unsustainable and struck while they still stood a chance. The war started when the people of the DPRK were faced with an existential threat.

Which is kind of similar to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, but nobody here is gonna pretend Russia are the good guys, just that they’re fighting a greater evil.

Also also, China has reserved a spot on its equivalent of the National Mall for when it takes Taiwan back.

Do you think the RoC can feasibly remain independent forever?

Eventually either PRC is gonna be able to make them a better deal than what the failing American empire can, or they’ll make long-term peaceful integration infeasible, necessitating short-term, violent integration.

ThomasMuentzner ,
@ThomasMuentzner@hexbear.net avatar

your analysis is completly of as it starts from a Propaganda Tainted cartoonishly Ill Informed Postion…

Russia Reacted , Its the Ukrainian Warcrimes thats the Issue here ! How can you Start this story from 2022 … its a crime against rational thinking , Chronology , Human Civilisation … Unserious Analyss based on the uncritical repetion of irrational claimes by the World greates Liars …

https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/b4a658fc-6303-4804-9884-b31870b29224.jpeghttps://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/dee667ec-8c04-4d5b-8713-998a6796db39.jpeghttps://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/d0904b1a-33e6-462c-83ef-8f8113812b7f.jpeghttps://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/7a0216ee-f347-440b-b147-9a1052af86e1.jpeg

dsmk ,

According to Russia itself, they started it in 2014 by invading Crimea. They initially denied it, but then even Putin himself said that the Little Green Men where their special forces. People like Igor Girkin said they were commanding the militias in Crimea and later in the Dombas and that they were composed of Russians and some Ukrainians. That’s what Russia says, so there’s no point in even denying it.

There was no Azov before the invasion. There was no war crimes. There was no famine. It started when Russia made the decision to invade Ukraine.

Maybe you want to go further back? How back? What about the 1994 Budapest Memorandum where Russia agreed to respect Ukraine’s borders?

Wait, I know, you’ll blame NATO. Care to explain why countries want to give some of their military freedom to join NATO? What is nice Russia doing or saying that makes them want to join? Could it be something about the regular comments about invading or nuking their cities? And do you really think that a weak, bloated, and corrupt military (a fair description of pre-2014 Ukraine military) was going to be allowed into NATO (and we’re the ones falling for propaganda)? I’d also like to know your opinion about CSTO.

Russia decided to invade Ukraine to expand their territory. That’s why Putin gave that long history lesson days before the invasion (the one that was not going to happen!). It’s was all there, for those who actually listened to it.

If you want to support them, then at least grow up a pair and stop using bullshit excuses to support your position.

s0ykaf ,
@s0ykaf@hexbear.net avatar

7 year old lecture by john mearsheimer, who is far from being a “putler shill” or a “tankie”, on why ukraine is the west’s fault

dsmk ,

I’ve watched the lecture. He makes some good points, but there are also some flaws with his positions. I recommend doing a quick “googling” for articles with counter points.

Russia is not governed by amateurs that are easily baited into invading a country. They decided to force Ukraine to align with them and when that didn’t work, they decided to invade in 2014. The decision and responsibility is theirs.

It’s a bit like blaming the Soviet Union or China for the Vietnam war because they were “expanding” communism or something like that. It makes no sense.

s0ykaf ,
@s0ykaf@hexbear.net avatar

i’m aware of the counter points

Russia is not governed by amateurs that are easily baited into invading a country

this was a bit surprising to read because if i spend 10 minutes in reddit i’ll leave thinking russians are governed by absolutely inept people who can’t do anything right and always fall for the silliest of cebolinha zelensky’s schemes

and it wasn’t a “bait”, that’s a silly way of looking at it; in the neorealist view it makes perfect sense that russia would see ukraine as an existential threat after the nato mistake was made, and that war would become inevitable if things escalated - as mearsheimer predicted more than a decade ago in other discussions

ukraine, in practical terms, has been disputed territory in terms of political influence since the fall of the ussr. but before the threat of nato, and the repeated breaking of the non-expansion promise, there was no sign that an invasion like this would ever happen

It’s a bit like blaming the Soviet Union or China for the Vietnam war because they were “expanding” communism or something like that. It makes no sense.

now you’re being disingenuous, vietnam doesn’t share a literal border with america. we should be able to blame the soviets for a mexican war if they attempted to bring mexico into a military alliance, and the US would be absolutely right to see said alliance as an existential threat because it would be

it’s ok to think that russia deserves an existential threat for whatever reason, such as, i don’t know, “putin bad” (though of course i wouldn’t say he’s as bad as any american president, at least he has never been such for my country). but denying that russia’s change into a bellicose attitude was predictable and avoidable by sane geopolitics is just denying reality at this point

dsmk ,

I don’t know what reddit is saying about Russia, but the “poor Russia, couldn’t help themselves and had to invade” doesn’t convince me. They made a calculated move which didn’t go as well as they expected. It happens sometimes.

NATO had an “open-door” policy from the start. Russia knows this, so unless we really think everyone over there is really dumb, they knew that NATO’s “sure, maybe we’ll let you in sometime in the future” meant little. Ukraine was trying to join since the early 2000’s and the reply was always the same… Ukraine wasn’t going to join NATO in 2014, like zero chance. I recommend reading about the state of their forces, corruption, etc, at the time. What changed was that Yanukovych was going to sign the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement, something that most of Ukraine supported (if we’re to trust polls and look at the reaction when he unexpectedly changed his mind) while Russia wanted Ukraine to do the same agreement with them instead.

The existential threat… I don’t know. Do you really think that their “existential threat” is now higher that Finland joined NATO (because of Russia’s actions)? Estonia is fine, but Ukraine is makes that “existential threat” much, much worse? And who the hell is going to start a war in Russia when they have capacity to reply to normal attacks and will, without a doubt, use their nukes if invaded? Does NATO now have a death wish or something like that?

I keep reading about that non expansion promise… again, I guess you all think Russians are dumb and got verbal assurances thinking that it’s the same as having them in writing. In any case, Russia doesn’t own eastern Europe, many countries have made clear they don’t want to be under their thumb or be part of their country. If Russia doesn’t like this, well, though luck. A reality check would also help here… they’re not the USSR.

The Vietnam example wasn’t a good one, but my point is that if we start finding excuses to justify wars, well, we can, but it never ends and it’s never our fault.

The US has some history with Cuba… but the only time when there was a really serious reaction wasn’t when Castro became friends with the Soviet Union… it was when nukes were deployed in Cuba (partially their fault, after deploying theirs in Turkey). Russia invaded Ukraine because they were winking at the EU and NATO… like, they didn’t even kiss!

I know why they invaded, but I also believe in taking responsibility for one’s actions. We can talk about moral responsibility, but at the end of the day Russia invaded Ukraine and therefore they are responsible for the war they started.

Sasuke ,
@Sasuke@hexbear.net avatar

you think north korea is annexing ukraine??? what planet are you living on

GaveUp ,
@GaveUp@hexbear.net avatar

Axis of Evil ganggggg

SootyChimney , (edited )

I wouldn’t even mind extending the war so much if there was any attempt to have some good faith peace negotiations to at least entertain a chance at peace??? Russia has always been up for peace talks, Ukraine/the West has not. In fact I am still often shouted down if I so much as say that all sides should be discussing the possibility of peace.

I agree Russia bad and should not be doing an awful invasion, but there is also a much wider context to their invasion that involves Ukraine refusing to give its eastern regions a vote on their own future and bombing civilians for 8 years. This war was very far from inevitable, even without giving Russia any major concessions.

KerPop47 ,

Russia can unilaterally end the war by leaving Ukrainian territory. They choose to extend the war because they want land and resources.

alcoholicorn , (edited )

And have NATO 500 miles from Moscow and all of Russia’s industry? That would be suicidal, Everyone remembers Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya.

Also the reason the west is extending the war is because they too want land and resources. This is a war between two bourgeois dictatorships

ToxicDivinity ,
@ToxicDivinity@hexbear.net avatar

Are you saying that Russia should leave the Donbas region and leave those people to be subjugated by the undemocratic Ukrainian gov that’s been indiscriminately murdering them for 8 years???

Hate Russia if you want but why do you hate the people of Donbas?

Bloobish ,

horsepoo-theory

GaveUp ,
@GaveUp@hexbear.net avatar

I think no PPB outside of hexbear

Bloobish ,

I apologize then, I have broken my own containment feral-hog

BurgerPunk ,
@BurgerPunk@hexbear.net avatar

Those inscrutable asiatics are licking their lips! Something must be done!!!

BigNote ,

I’m not sure that it’s as “quiet” as OP thinks it is.

KrimsonBun ,
@KrimsonBun@lemmy.ml avatar

Americans have died in that war. Just not sent there by force like imperialists like to do and purely out of the instinct to help their brothers in danger.

Ziro ,

Someone from my state recently died fighting for Ukraine. I live in New England. I guess we aren’t American?

Zoboomafoo ,
@Zoboomafoo@yiffit.net avatar

“Americans” as in “Agents of the American government”, not as in “American citizens”

Just English being weird as per usual

blterrible ,

I think you know what he meant, or are you claiming that the “someone” was part of a secret US military program and died in action?

GottiGoFast ,

Have you SEEN patriot fans?

Smh

adhdplantdev ,

It was a volunteer. Not a solider ordered to be there

Blackmist ,

“You’re not wrong, you’re just an asshole.”

Soot ,

Millions of fellow human beings are constantly dying, being severely injured, or displaced. You fucking ghoul.

rikudou ,

Russians can just leave Ukraine, you know? If they don’t, they deserve every single death. Poor Ukrainians, though.

KerPop47 ,

Iirc the main thing preventing Russian troops from pulling back to their border is the Russian commanders that won’t let them

PeoplesRepublicOfNewEngland ,

Straight out of the gaping shitass orifice of Failed States of America propaganda. Incredible

sarcasticsunrise ,

Whilst not suffering a series of mini-strokes on national television, Mitch is as always razor sharp and the epitome of giving zero fucks about any human lives/hides other than his own. May the Sweet Lord Above see fit to drown this nearly calcified ghoul in a bed of his own shit, like real soon. Tomorrow morning would be cool

Rapidcreek ,

Mitch may be crap, but here he is just trying to get ahead of Republicans who would rather leave Ukraine high and dry. He may give zero fucks about human lives but not as bad as the Russians who have no problem committing war crimes on a daily basis.

Fact is that for less than 3% of the DOD budget we get the result of the loss of over 50% of the military strength of one of our top geopolitical foes. Plus, it will take them at least a decade to rebuild it.

No one asked Russia to invade Ukraine and disrupt world order. Russia doesn’t seem to want to negotiate. Why would you want Ukraine to give up?

PosadistInevitablity , (edited )
@PosadistInevitablity@hexbear.net avatar

By all third party accounts the Russian military is stronger than when the invasion began.

Where you get a 50% reduction in strength must be from the most fevered of dreams. The Nazis could not overthrow Russia with millions of men and hundreds of thousands of vehicles.

You think it will be done with 3% of our budget? Honestly? We couldn’t do it with 100% of our budget. We’d have to go to a war economy and devote 60% or more of the gdp.

Rapidcreek ,

By all third parties you must be excluding the institute of war and every western intelligence agency. That must be the reason you are pulling WWII tanks out of museums, emptying prisons for manpower, ect. Your BS may play well in your own country, comrade, but it’s still BS.

PosadistInevitablity , (edited )
@PosadistInevitablity@hexbear.net avatar

Western intelligence agencies are party to the war…

Open a history book if you think beating Russia is easy. Dozens of leaders made the same mistake over and over.

The fact that you have to assume I’m Russian to believe this reveals your arrogance.

Rapidcreek ,

Yes yes the mighty Russians and their 3 day war…

We’re not living in history but in reality. The reality is that although Ukraine have less troops, they are battle hardened. Russia uses cannon fodder and officers who blow up if they don’t fall out of a window.

rikudou ,

Yeah - Russia has and always had one tactic - “nas mnogo” aka “there’s many of us”. While it might have worked in the past where the amount of troops basically decided who will win, it doesn’t work with modern weapons.

PosadistInevitablity , (edited )
@PosadistInevitablity@hexbear.net avatar

The Ukrainians vastly outnumbered the Russian forces in Ukraine at the beginning of this conflict. Easily 5 to 1.

That’s easily researchable and provable, spare me the sass.

Now it is roughly 1 to 1. You can see how that’s played out, with the Ukranian counter offensive accomplishing much less than expected.

Russias army started weak and is continuing to grow in strength, as they have in nearly every conflict they’ve been in over the last five centuries.

Rapidcreek ,

5 to 1 you say? Since Russia is commonly acknowledged having encircled Ukraine with more than 100,000 troops before their invasion, that would mean little old Ukraine put 500,000 troops in the field. There are very few places that can put half a million troops in the field. China of course, if pressed. And of course NATO

Take your BS to someone foolish enough to believe it

PosadistInevitablity ,
@PosadistInevitablity@hexbear.net avatar

statista.com/…/russia-ukraine-military-comparison…

Five seconds of googling you are a tiring sassy person

Rapidcreek ,

Sigh…putting up with your nonsense

What I see here is Russia with 830,900 active soldiers, which seems about right. Ukraine, on the other hand, shows 200,000, which is a bit of a high number as I’ve seen half that. Putin didn’t send his whole army at the outset thinking it would be a lot easier than it was. He has now. Ukraine didn’t have the equipment for all of its army at the outset but they are closer now. No 5 to 1, sorry.

ToxicDivinity ,
@ToxicDivinity@hexbear.net avatar

We’re not living in history but in reality.

Is history not real?

MoreAmphibians ,

institute of war

Do you mean the Institute for the Study of War? The one founded and run by Kimberly Kagan? She’s the sister-in-law of Victoria Nuland who is the Acting Deputy Secretary of State.

pbs.twimg.com/media/F1kjvOsXwAA1tVk?format=jpg&am…

Duamerthrax ,

I guess Putin’s checks are bouncing.

tuga ,

I wish

Duamerthrax ,

Career politicians never say what they really mean at times like this. Even if it’s true, it serves a purpose to himself.

ThePac ,

Oof. Ruskie shills all up in these comments.

ToxicDivinity , (edited )
@ToxicDivinity@hexbear.net avatar

It’s really sad when the Russian shills are so good that you can’t even think of a rebuttal

forcequit ,

Oof.

ThePac ,

lol like I’d waste my time.

ToxicDivinity ,
@ToxicDivinity@hexbear.net avatar

you’re posting on lemmy, its all a waste of time

came_apart_at_Kmart ,
@came_apart_at_Kmart@hexbear.net avatar

maybe the fedposting only pays for the initial derailing post attempt, not the followup quarter-assed defense of “international rules-based order” that exposes the ignorance and unfamiliarity with material reality.

Melonius ,
@Melonius@hexbear.net avatar

The agent is forbidden from reading any response, otherwise he might develop a conscience or worse, self awareness.

AntiOutsideAktion ,
@AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net avatar

God forbid you organize your thoughts to the point they’re coherent. Then you could just have a copypasta ready to go. But for some reason you can’t even find one someone else wrote for you.

Grimble ,

You only have the energy for one unrelated buzzwordy comment but dont have the skills to defend yourself. Just lmao

Your side’s dead. You dont even know it yet.

ThePac ,

ruskie shill says what?

Grimble ,

farquaad-point Department of Naval Intelligence

silent_water ,
@silent_water@hexbear.net avatar

everyone who disagrees with me is a shill 🌽

Redcat ,

comment number 5 by guy who definitely wouldn’t waste his time and was definitely not owned

vacuumflower ,

I really don’t get how evaluating this quote as honest makes one a Russian shill.

It’s as if you could either be the good guys or the bad guys, and if the good guys are not so good, then you’re justifying the bad guys. This whole thought process makes me feel as if my brain was dying right now.

I mean, it must be pure charity, sending all those armaments etc to Ukraine while happily ignoring lots of other countries invaded over the last 10 years, right?

(I’m definitely not a shill, cause I write this openly from Moscow.)

BigNote ,

That’s an unwarranted assumption. It’s perfectly possible that they are already familiar with your arguments and are uninterested in relitigating the issue with idiots. Certainly that would be my position.

LeateWonceslace ,

Your only mistake was to respond instead of blocking them.

Redcat ,

Tfw they are so right you gotta block them at first sight.

StalinwasaGryffindor ,

smuglord

Grimble ,

Say something about the article for christs sake. This doesn’t help your image the way you think

BigNote ,

Why would anyone give a fuck about their “image” on an anonymous Internet forum? Honest question.

SootyChimney ,

I’m supposed to be paid for this???

BurgerPunk ,
@BurgerPunk@hexbear.net avatar

How do you say “ruskie” and not feel like a loser? Do you know what decade it is?

interdimensionalmeme ,

I can’t hear your over the sound of tanks rolling west

5ublimation ,
@5ublimation@hexbear.net avatar

cat-confused

Grosboel ,

Are these ‘tanks rolling west’ in the room with us right now? Take your schizo- phrenia medication.

interdimensionalmeme ,

Cease your disinformation campaign at once tankie !

www.international.gc.ca/…/ukraine-fact-fait.aspx?…

Depicted, Russian tanks rolling west, killing civilians dailymail.co.uk/…/Ukraine-war-Elderly-civilian-co…

Frank ,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

:haramharam

NATO bad but picking sides in a proxy war between capitalists also bad.

jabrd ,

It makes sense to me that the ghouls in charge of this dying empire would say this but it always blows my mind when I meet someone in real life who will say shit like this. Especially when they turn around and play liberal progressive like they aren’t sitting in a circle trying to ritually summon the nuclear holocaust

HawlSera ,

Is the Empire dying? I’ve been hearing people tell me that I witnessing the death whales of fascism finally being stabbed out, since before a lot of gen Z was born.

redtea ,

Seems to be, but it’ll take a long time to go completely. It’s easy to over estimate the speed at which these things happen.

Flinch ,
@Flinch@hexbear.net avatar

as a good friend of mine once said, “there are decades where nothing happens, and weeks where decades happen.” lenin-laugh

redtea ,

There’s that as well!

AntiOutsideAktion , (edited )
@AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net avatar

Control of the periphery is looking real shaky. Multipolarity is pretty much a fait accompli right now. The core of the empire itself is objectively crumbling. The institutions that mediate conflicts between internal concentrations of power have become completely incapable of doing anything. So there’s not going to be a correction to the trends unless something revolutionary happens.

Not to say the US empire isn’t still daunting in its hard and soft power. But boy did taking Russia off of SWIFT land with a wet fart. And it sure seems like the US military is a paper tiger from how their equipment has been performing to say nothing of NATO tactics.

That and they fucked up the sino-soviet split by putting Russia and China on the same side of an issue. That’s the greatest foreign policy win for the empire in the 20th century gone.

Farman , (edited )

I was skeptical until tesla became a thing. In 2010 a friend wanted me to buy and i refused because it was so oviously a scam. Despite huge subsidies it has made a majority of its profits from bitcoin, wich is also a scam. Yet its worth a lot of money. The only way to explain it is that the rate of profit is low enough that most proffit is coming from risk rather than from the actual natural rate of profitthe us already deep into the canobalistic phase all societies end in.

So esentially we are living in the industrial equivalent of an agrarian crisis. unless something fundamental changes in our understanding of phisics the empire may colapse under a significant enough stocastic shock. And that treshold is only going to get smaller. In this analogy covid was the equivalent of the 1315 famine. Wich didnt cause a collapse but made it clear the collapse was imminent.

Harrison ,

What we are seeing with ludicrously over valued companies like Tesla and cryptocurrencies is what Marx described as fictitious capital.

The US is not going to collapse from investor shock, its produces a huge surplus of food and oil, and the use of its military to enforce the dollar as the world’s reserve currency protects it from market crises since the whole world subsidises the federal reserve simply printing more money.

Farman ,

Prehaphs i wss not clear. The important part is not that the hogs are allocating funds to tesla is why they are doing it. Because the rate of profit is very low. This tells us that western societies are well into the canibalistic phase. This also means that the societies ability to resist stocastic shocks is decreasing.

In my analogy i mention the 1315 famine, a few years were a bit too wet. Grain yields fell a little and a lot of people died. The thing is that those climatic variations are very common but they only cause a famine when the rate of change in land productivity with respect to labor is low enough. This makes the society unable to react to these shoks that normally wouldnt be a problem. By 1315 standards of living had been on the decline for over a generatio(as they are now).

In the elite sphere it means wealth bexomes more concentrated class conciousnes and solidarty breaks down so that they are less wigling to coperate. And eventually it all inevitably ends in an orgy of cannibalism.

While the rate of profit plays a sligthly different role than the rate of chang in land productivity with respect to labor. It is also related to a societies ability to react to crisies and to how canibalistic its elites get.

We see more rash imperialist adventures, we see them eating europen industry, we see them play scams on each other more brazenly. Etc.

It also means that same military is less likley to adapt to changes because there is neither will nor enough unclaimed surplus for that. It means its not worth it to hold dollars because us investments ate not profitable.

Frank ,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

There are a lot of things going on that could result in the US losing a great deal of it’s power. NATO’s poor performance in Ukraine will likely greatly reduce their reputation for an invincible military. The US’s illegal seizure of funds from Russian oligarchs and from Afghanistan seems to have greatly reduced confidence in the dollar. The Yuan is seeing more and more use in international trade, and Saudi is thinking about letting countries use currency other than dollars to buy oil. The famines or near-famines caused by the war in Ukraine has greatly damaged NATOs already poor reputation in the Global South. And of course the US domestic economy is in free fall, with many people struggling just to afford bread and a roof, and hundreds of thousands of homeless. And hundreds of thousands is likely a severe undercount. Plus the GOP aligned states are leading an active genocide against trans people, with an estimate by Erin Reed suggesting there are at least 250,000 internal refugees fleeing state repression in the US, with many more unable to flee for financial or other reasons. The US is going to face an enormous social burden from Long Covid related disability which will likely continue to increase as more and more people are disabled by Covid complications. The US is trying to provoke a war with China despite having no way to pay for it, no confidence in the government at home, and no way to replace the access to manufactured goods that a war with China would result in. To say nothing of the nuclear apocalypse. Large swaths of the US south hit a wet-bulb temperature that was fatal to human life earlier in the summer. This was not predicted to happen for decades yet. Given the state of infrastructure in the US south, especially Texas’s grid, this may lead to a truly horrific mass death event in the near future, with a commensurately horrific refugee crisis as people flee the death zone.

There’s a lot of destabilizing factors in the US. The future is never certain, but it doesn’t look good for America.

AssortedBiscuits ,
@AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net avatar

It has been extremely obvious to everyone who isn’t an incredulous lib (ie the ledditor refugees from lemm.ee et al) that the US doesn’t actually give a shit about Ukraine and is more than happen to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian. Why else would the US constantly ship overpriced wunderwaffen that the Ukrainians can barely use due to lack of training time while at the same time gobbling up Ukrainian state assets? And as we saw with how Afghanistan ended, the US will inevitably pull support, most likely because of Taiwan, and the Ukrainian war effort will collapse overnight just like Afghanistan imploded as soon as the US left the country.

The US has to fight multiple fronts against its peer adversaries as well as not-quite peer adversaries. Just recently, there’s a coup in Niger with crowds of Nigeriens waving Russian flags cheering the coup leaders. While Western MSM underreport the average Nigeriens’ heartfelt desire to kick out the French and overexaggerate Russia’s involvement per usual, an anti-France alliance is forming in the Sahel, and Putin has launched a charm offensive courting African leaders. This is the formation of another front between the West and Russia, and the US will funnel resources away from Ukraine and towards various jihadist and separatist groups like Boko Haram in order to destabilize West Africa.

Ukraine isn’t so exceptional that the US will be willing to abandon a front and lose say Taiwan for the sake of Ukraine. And from MSM reporting about the failed counteroffensive, we’re close to the “US cutting their loses and leaving their allies out to dry while Hexbears repeat that quote from Kissinger” stage.

MoreAmphibians ,

The propaganda from the west is absolutely baffling if you try to understand it through anything other than pure vibes. America claims that Putin is going to genocide every single Ukrainian and the response from the US is to send a dozen tanks in a year or so? Why not promise 200-300 tanks and promise to send them as soon they can get tankers trained on them? There’s literally 2000 of them just standing there in the desert, isn’t a conflict with Russia what they were built for? The west is sending just enough weapons and ammo to prolong the conflict but nowhere near enough for Ukraine to actually have a shot at winning.

OKRainbowKid ,

🤡

aaaaaaadjsf ,
@aaaaaaadjsf@hexbear.net avatar

The west is sending just enough weapons and ammo to prolong the conflict but nowhere near enough for Ukraine to actually have a shot at winning.

That’s the crux of the matter right there. And they then force Ukraine to carry out attacks with this lack of equipment and training. Knowing full well that there is minimal chance of victory. Ghoul empire.

vacuumflower ,

It’s more like “the West” just has that equipment in insufficient numbers.

The NATO (or “Western”) military and political doctrine of the last ~30 years was something like “let’s buy most of them with contracts and convenient deals and Desert Storm the remaining few, cause our combined force is so fucking superior”.

It’s also that to some extent people have really started to believe in this superiority (I mean, it’s counterintuitive, an exceptional force of 10k still can’t defeat a crowd of 500k, but many people in Europe and USA seemed to believe that the dwarf armies of Europe are prepared for a real war if it comes).

NATO equipment is simply very expensive now (and complex, so takes longer to train personnel for) and not produced in sufficient quantities.

I mean, this war reminds us that all revolutions in warfare happen only on battlefields between comparable adversaries. When you imagine something and then “prove” it with a beating like Desert Storm, again, and pretend that this is what modern war will look like, you commit a mistake.

So - it appears that a real modern war still involves lots of ground forces grinding each other. Who would have thought that? I mean, Turkey and Israel have pretty western-style militaries, yet with conscription and large standing armies.

I wonder whether all those EU countries are going to introduce conscript training and reserve, cause if they intend to be militarily relevant, they’ll have to do that over all the “draft is slavery” cultural image.

Harrison ,

NATO doctrine relies heavily on airpower for any large military conflict. The NATO ground armies might be relatively small, but their combined air forces are qualitatively superior in every metric and at minimum three times larger than any potential opponent. 10k people can hold off 500k when they have a giant arsenal of precision guided weapons and complete control of the air.

vacuumflower ,

The most important word here is “combined”. Consensus is a really bad condition for winning a war, in my opinion.

10k people can hold off 500k when they have a giant arsenal of precision guided weapons and complete control of the air.

Not even then, unless you mean precision guided weapons in similar quantities as late Soviet union had Grad missiles.

Not arguing that air superiority is very important.

Frank ,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

That is verifiably not true. Vietnam and Korea made it very clear that you cannot win a war with air power alone. And precision weapons are effectively useless. The US can’t sustain minor campaigns of shelling random cities in the Global South without running out of munitions. And short of nuclear weapons it has no capability to level cities with it’s air force. The F-35 has, what, like four weapons pylons?

Add to that, the Russia air-defense systems have proven very effective, which changes the game. And the F-35 that is the lynchpin of NATO’s air superiority strategy has a great deal of limitations, not the least of which is how expensive and stretched it’s logistical requirements are.

NATO’s air force is completely untested and reliant on extremely expensive, hard to maintain platforms with very limited tactical flexibility. It’s entirely possible the F-35 fleet will defeat itself through attrition due to it’s enormous maintenance requirements.

Harrison ,

Add to that, the Russia air-defense systems have proven very effective.

Proven effective against cold-war era planes maybe. There have been a few improvements in the past 50 years. Those same Russian air-defence systems proved themselves effectively useless against the F-117 in the Balkans, and the F-35 is miles above the F-117.

Vietnam and Korea proved that 1950s and 1970s era technology was not up to the task, not that it was not possible. The main issue with both was the lack of accuracy.

The US can’t sustain minor campaigns of shelling random cities in the Global South without running out of munitions.

“Running out” in this case meaning dipping below normal stockpile levels.

vacuumflower ,

Those same Russian air-defence systems proved themselves effectively useless against the F-117 in the Balkans

There’s been some improvements in the past 20 years too, sometimes even not only on paper.

Anyway, the biggest problem of the ex-Soviet militaries is their incompetence, not their tech. The systems employed are up to the necessary tasks and sometimes more adaptable than NATO systems, it’s just that even their normal operation sometimes can’t be achieved by people using them.

vacuumflower ,

the Russia air-defense systems have proven very effective, which changes the game

Due to modernization in the course of the current war, and against weapons used in it, specifically those Turkish drones and the small copters everybody uses now in every conflict.

I’m not sure how good they’d be against something launched from F-35.

has a great deal of limitations, not the least of which is how expensive and stretched it’s logistical requirements are

However I should agree that I too just hate F-35.

NATO’s air force is completely untested

Well, again, Israeli and Turkish ones are tested somewhat well, but mostly against much weaker opponents unable to get their sh*t together.

and reliant on extremely expensive, hard to maintain platforms with very limited tactical flexibility.

Yes.

barsoap ,

and the response from the US is to send a dozen tanks in a year or so

Europe is wondering the exact same thing: Why are the yanks pussy-footing around? They’re usually much more hawkish. The reason is that the US are shit-scared about Russia thinking the US is trying to invade by proxy or something.

The west is sending just enough weapons and ammo to prolong the conflict but nowhere near enough for Ukraine to actually have a shot at winning.

Europe is sending pretty much as much as it can without compromising its own defensive abilities. Have a look at the Baltic states, sending over as large as a percentage of their GDP as the US is sending as a percentage of its military budget. It’s the US which has gazillions of Abrams sitting around doing nothing but collecting dust and is not shipping them over, not Europe.

And also unlike the US, Europe is sending long-range missile systems to hit logistics etc. in the rear so that Ukraine doesn’t have to gnaw through trench lines.

Homework: Go through all your geopolitical takes and get rid of the term “the west” and instead actually be precise.

PosadistInevitablity , (edited )
@PosadistInevitablity@hexbear.net avatar

The US is pussyfooting because this was a fight they picked, and did not expect it to be this hard.

All the surrounding nonsense is their propaganda, and the leaders don’t actually believe any of it.

They don’t feel committed because they chose this, and won’t overcommit to a losing battle. They just need to steward the fight into a slow loss that doesn’t eat up many more resources.

Their actions are inexplicable otherwise - if they were truly afraid of Russia, they’d never have joined in the first place.

Frank ,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

Why are the yanks pussy-footing around? They’re usually much more hawkish.

Because they’re using Ukrainians to grind down the Russian military, and economy, by attrition. The goal isn’t to “win”, the goal is to destabilize Russia. Ukrainians are just ammunition. The longer the war drags on, the more costly it is for Russia.

The reason is that the US are shit-scared about Russia thinking the US is trying to invade by proxy or something.

Russia already thinks that. That’s what turned the civil war in Ukraine in to a proxy war between NATO and Russia.

Have a look at the Baltic states

Okay, so? I could match that if I flipped over my couch and counted the loose change. All of the baltics together add up to one medium-large urban area.

It’s the US which has gazillions of Abrams sitting around doing nothing but collecting dust and is not shipping them over, not Europe.

That would be very expensive, and I’m not even sure the US has the logistical capacity for it. Plus seeing Abrams burned out by modern ATGMs would seriously harm the US’s reputation for military invincibility. And, again, they’re primarily concerned that Russia loses. Ukraine winning would be a nice bonus, but it’s not the chief goal.

barsoap ,

the civil war in Ukraine

You have a very active imagination.

Okay, so? I could match that if I flipped over my couch and counted the loose change. All of the baltics together add up to one medium-large urban area.

Look, it’s that Seppo exceptionalism again.

That would be very expensive, and I’m not even sure the US has the logistical capacity for it.

The US only has those Abrams because it’s cheaper to produce them than shut down the production line for a couple of years and then start it up again. Realistically speaking much of what the US sends should be valued at negative monetary value as Ukraine taking it means the US doesn’t have to pay to dispose of it.

MoreAmphibians , (edited )

the civil war in Ukraine

You have a very active imagination.

Look up what was happening in Ukraine from 2014-2022. I know the media always refers to the people living there as Russian-backed separatists but they are in fact Ukrainians.

The US only has those Abrams because it’s cheaper to produce them than shut down the production line for a couple of years and then start it up again. Realistically speaking much of what the US sends should be valued at negative monetary value as Ukraine taking it means the US doesn’t have to pay to dispose of it.

So why hasn’t the US sent 200-300 tanks? Why did the US demand that Ukraine launch a counteroffensive with insufficient tanks and air support? Why is the US trickling in just enough equipment to prolong the conflict as much as possible without giving Ukraine everything it could possibly need to win. Why is US propaganda so different from the actions the US is actually taking?

barsoap ,

I know the media always refers to the people living there as Russian-backed separatists but they are in fact Ukrainians.

Force-recruited to fight on frontlines with Mosin Nagants or, alternatively, Wagner green men.

So why hasn’t the US sent 200-300 tanks?

Because they’re chicken and don’t understand Russia. Russia sees such hesitance as weakness and reason to continue on, as evidence that the US isn’t really in it for the long run. And, I mean, they’re not wrong in that regard proper commitment looks quite differently.

Why did the US demand that Ukraine launch a counteroffensive with insufficient tanks and air support?

When did the US demand such a thing? Ukraine has plenty of reason and grit and will to decide that on their own. Oh and there’s a suitable number of tanks for what Ukraine is doing (they’re not stupid and don’t overcommit), the issue indeed is lack of air superiority, all that fancy NATO hardware is supposed to be used with NATO doctrine which involves throwing air superiority at the enemy until the ground frontline is the enemy’s whole territory. But Ukraine is doing the best of the situation and picking off positions NATO would pick off from the air with various artillery systems, both medium and long range. And they’re very good at it, which shouldn’t really surprise anyone as that’s good ole soviet doctrine and Ukraine always was the core force in the red army anyways.

Why is the US trickling in just enough equipment to prolong the conflict as much as possible without giving Ukraine everything it could possibly need to win.

Because they’re a bunch of chickens who don’t understand Russia. Alternatively, with some conspiratorial thinking, they want to prolong the war – I frankly doubt it, never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. But that’s irrelevant, in any case: Because that should be reason for you to demand that more weapons be shipped, not less.

Why is US propaganda so different from the actions the US is actually taking?

I wouldn’t know I don’t follow US media way too much of a partisan clown show anyway.

FluffyPotato ,

The US obviously doesn’t care but the aid is helping Ukraine keep it’s independence and even if US pulled out Europe would continue it’s support. Like Poland is amping up ammo production to the point where it alone can supply Ukraine with ammo. Ex-soviet countries fucking hate Russia for a good reason. Also even if Ukraine got no support it’s not like they would stop fighting, they would just be slaughtered and occupied by the Russians which is the worst outcome for them considering what’s going on in the occupied regions. Like for once the US military is not doing something completely morally reprehensible and is actually opposing imperialism for once, that’s a good thing.

ElChapoDeChapo ,
@ElChapoDeChapo@hexbear.net avatar

Ex-soviet countries fucking hate Russia for a good reason

No, they really don’t have a good reason bugs-stalin

Like for once the US military is not doing something completely morally reprehensible and is actually opposing imperialism for once, that’s a good thing.

doubt are you really that gullible?

Eccitaze ,
@Eccitaze@yiffit.net avatar

I dunno, all the genocide might have given them a reason to hate Russia

gnuhaut ,
  • Ukraine isn’t independent, they got coup’ed by US-backed Nazis and libs and they’re now a vassal or the US empire.
  • Most European countries would immediately follow the US, as they always do.
  • The whole of NATO cannot send enough arms right now, and you think Poland can do it all on its own soon? What are you on about?
OKRainbowKid ,

🤡

Omegamint ,
@Omegamint@hexbear.net avatar

🤓

Grimble ,

use your words

OKRainbowKid ,

Why waste time say lot word when emoji do trick?

zephyreks ,

Effort < 0

OKRainbowKid ,

🤷‍♂️

FluffyPotato ,
  1. No they didn’t. Their president made a play to become a dictator and failed. Any support for euromaidan outside Ukraine happened after.
  2. Maybe Germany but no earthly force can stop support from the baltics and Poland that hate Russia with a passion due to their bloody rule during the soviet occupation and current antagonism from Russia.
  3. They can’t send enough arms that Ukraine can use. More modern stuff requires training Ukraine doesn’t have and most places aren’t producing old equipment so what’s sent is stuff is stockpile. More training is being done to modernize the equipment but that takes time. Also Poland just wants to produce the ammo, not everything and it was just one example.
gnuhaut ,

I don’t know where you’re from, but I think you also “hate hate Russia with a passion” and it’s clouding your judgement, because you live in some alternate reality if you believe all that.

There’s an old clip of Nuland where she says the US spent 5 billion dollars promoting democracy in Ukraine. There’s also the famous “Fuck the EU” clip of her deciding who’s going to be PM before the coup even happened. Then there’s her and lots of other western politicians on stage at the Maidan. McCain famously shook hands with a Nazi leader on there.

Can you imagine what you would say if all these things were done by Russia instead of the US?

FluffyPotato ,

I have seen both clips. The 5 billion was over like 30 years as foreign aid which is like pretty common for the US, there are like 50 other countries that also receive aid like this. And the other one I know is when Nuland ‘selected’ their next leader who was the leader of the opposition who would have been in power anyways.

All those politicians showed up after it happeded as I said.

You can also verify the laws Yanukovych was trying to pass. They pretty obviously are meant to turn him into the dictator of Ukraine. I would protest that.

gnuhaut ,

The 5 billion was over like 30 years as foreign aid which is like pretty common for the US, there are like 50 other countries that also receive aid like this.

Well that’s fine then I guess. The US “aids” pro-US political groups with billions of dollars everywhere! How nice.

All those politicians showed up after it happeded as I said.

There are pictures of them on the Maidan. Before the coup. News articles in the western press. What is this kindergarten? Do you have no object permanence?

FluffyPotato ,

What I was saying is that no, 5 billion wasn’t given to some shadowy group in Ukraine to do a coup, it was the standard foreign aid the US throws around to advance it’s interests.

Also yes, politicians go around shaking hands all over the place. I though you meant they went to Ukraine to specifically support Euromaidan before it happened but any politician supporting that visited after.

Ultimately the laws that triggered the protests were very protestable. If Kaia Kallas tried to pass those here I would be taking up a pitchfork and torch right now. There is no evidence to suggest it was some group paid by the US but plenty to suggest people protested because their leader was screwing them over.

gnuhaut ,

Obviously protestors have a reason for protesting and the CIA isn’t handing out cash to random schmoes. They’re just giving money to various groups that organize and support the protest, or they pay for positive media coverage. Groups they’ve been cultivating for decades. Groups that are coordinated by the US state department and will do basically what the US embassy tells them to do.

Again, imagine you had protests in Estonia, and the groups involved were long-time funded by Russia, and Russian officials made appearances at these protests to hand out cookies and shake hands, and Russian-funded media was riling up the protestors, and some of the people involved are straight up far-right fascists that hate your ethnic group. And then you hear a leaked phone call of Lavrov discussing who’s going to be the new PM of Estonia, and a couple of weeks later, shooting starts (no one knows how exactly and nobody is too interested in finding out) and your old PM gets ousted without proper procedure, and the guy the Russians said they liked is in, and the far-right fascists also gets posts, and they hate you. WHAT WOULD YOU THINK?

FluffyPotato ,

The initial protest, that were gunned down, were started by students at like midnight because the leader tried to sneakily pass the dictatorship laws… Also as I said the money was given over like 30 years. If they were discussing the new PM and it was the person who was 100% going to be PM then that would be irrelevant as I said.

At best all of this is some slightly sussy things that seem maybe related but if you look into all of them individually they are basically meaningless. But if you look at what the people were protesting it makes perfect sense to protest this.

So the 2 options boil down to:

  1. For the last 30 years ‘the west’ has been working to coup Ukraine and they have control to determine who will be leader and they pick the most obvious guy that would already be in power. But they don’t have the power to make the protestors take the deal they were urging them to take.
  2. Yanakovych wants to be a dictator so he passes laws to slowly make himself into one. The students take issue and protest. He reacts the worst way and kills them triggering massive protests across the country forcing him to flee.

Option #2 seems way more believable to me.

gnuhaut ,

Yes, the US cultivates influence groups that then, at the right time, take over real protests involving actual people with actual grievances, as a cover to carry out coups. They have done this many times. They do this because they want to loot and exploit countries for cheap labor and resources, and in this case, also to put a whole army in Russia’s face.

Some questions about your explanation: He just wants to be dictator? Why? Who’s backing him and why? Why would he be so stupid as to shoot at the protestors?

Have you ever seen that documentary about the failed coup to overthrow Chavez, “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised”? Private pro-coup TV channels told everybody the pro-Chavez protestors started shooting at the opposition, which was the mainstream narrative at the time. This was used as justification to oust him (temporarily). But the documentary filmmakers (which happened to be there filming at the time) show that it was snipers shooting at both pro- and anti-Chavez demonstrators.

FluffyPotato ,

Why does anyone want to be a dictator? Like Lukashenko is pretty hated but he seems to get a kick out of it. In the US that florida guy who looks like homelander looks like he would do a dictatorship. I don’t get it but plenty of people seem to want to be dictators.

It’s probable that Yanakovitch was backed by Putin, I think there was some crazy loan he gave the guy after he pulled away from the EU but I could be entirely wrong. He could just want to be a dictator with no one backing him like Lukashenko initially, though now he is definitely cozied up to Putin.

Dictators tend to be pretty stupid and just want to play strongman. Like why did Mao kill the sparrows and trigger a massive famine. Because he was an idiot, hell pretty much all parts of the great leap forward was insanely stupid. Or when Stalin had that science guy who said communist crops will not compete for nutrients and that triggered insane famines. Again because he was a moron. Or why did Lenin kill all his allies that wanted democracy. Because big dumb and that got Stalin into power who ran a bloody empire only outdone by Hitler who was also a fucking moron and let his dog decide military maneuvers. Seems like there’s a pattern here.

Never seen that and don’t know much about Chavez so can’t comment on that. He always seemed like the guy people from the US talk about and people from the US generally have dogshit political takes. Americans gave the world ancaps and I won’t forgive that.

gnuhaut ,

So they’re just evil madmen? Well that explains it. A job well done. Maybe you’ve watched too many movies?

FluffyPotato ,

I never said evil, pretty sure at least some dictators had good intentions. I said they were all stupid, I can’t really find any exceptions to it either. Also movies tend to portray dictators like some genius madmen which is extremely wrong, like most nazies were absolute troglodytes but movies portray them as some strategic geniuses. Like their missiles were initially so shit because their scientists believed the earth was flat and didn’t take the curvature of the earth into consideration.

Every dictator at some point shows what a moron they are and so far that has played out in history.

Redcat , (edited )

it was the standard foreign aid the US throws around to advance it’s interests.

It’s quite telling that the US has triggered so many coups around the world that you can call it ‘the standard foreign aid’. How the hell do you think coups come about?

redtea ,

The US “aids” pro-US political groups with billions of dollars everywhere! How nice.

Yes but what if this time the US didn’t want something out of it? If the US did want something out of it there would be evidence of it, surely? Like a website for privatising Ukrainian assets? Or IMF reports explaining how half the loans were given to pay off the previous ones until Ukraine dismantled it’s manufacturing industries, military capabilities, and devalued it’s currency? Or, I don’t know, an article like the one in the OP that quotes someone explaining the US is only involved to quell dissent about it’s failing economy among it’s domestic workers.

zephyreks ,

Is promoting democracy foreign aid?

Frank ,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

the baltics

I’ve lived in cities with a much larger population than all of the Baltics. What, exactly, are three medium sized suburbs going to do against Russia?

FluffyPotato ,

Have an actual military instead of a meat grinder disguised as one.

Frank ,
@Frank@hexbear.net avatar

jesse-wtf

PolandIsAStateOfMind ,
@PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml avatar

Wait did you just said Baltics have actual military? Compared to… Russia? All of them combined have less that 50000 active military personnel with pretty weak armament and basically nonexisting navy and airforce (all three combined have literally zero combat airplanes).

Farman ,

No it cant all of nato cant support ukraine with ammo. That is nonsense.

Harrison ,

Yes, but mainly that’s because NATOs ammo production was very limited. The factories are all designed to be scaled up massively in times of need, but pre-2022, NATO was barely producing enough to maintain stockpiles.

MoreAmphibians ,

Is it a time of need now?

DivineChaos100 ,
@DivineChaos100@hexbear.net avatar

Sorry to break it down to you but if your safety DEPENDS from foreign weapon aids, you’re anything but independent.

FluffyPotato ,

More independant than an annexed country.

DivineChaos100 ,
@DivineChaos100@hexbear.net avatar

Goalpost:moved

FluffyPotato ,

That was kind of a joke as there are like 5 countries who produce all their weapons locally.

Commiejones ,
@Commiejones@hexbear.net avatar

Goalpost:moved again

He said Ukraine’s safety depends on foreign weapon aids

Other nations buy weapons. Ukraine only exists as long as it can continue to successfully beg for weapons.

FluffyPotato ,

You sure do like your goalposts…

I’m pretty sure the US at least is providing weapons in the form of a loan so they are buying their weapons too.

Also begging for weapons seems a bit more dignified than having your army steal washing machines and build the electronics of your equipment out of those.

Krause ,
@Krause@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Also begging for weapons seems a bit more dignified than having your army steal washing machines and build the electronics of your equipment out of those.

How do Liberals square off the fact that Russia is outproducing America and EU for war equipment with this insane washing machine myth? How many washing machines are in Russia and Ukraine anyway? Must be a lot if they’re kicking NATO’s ass while still relying on them for parts data-laughing

FluffyPotato ,

Well if by producing you mean raiding their own museums for equipment then yea. Also probably not many left at this point, ukraine should deploy tactical washing boards to rob Russia of their last source of electronics.

Krause , (edited )
@Krause@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Well if by producing you mean raiding their own museums for equipment then yea.

No, I meant Russia literally outproducing the United States and the EU 10 to 1 while also having vastly superior inventories when compared to the dwindling supply America is running through. Libs like to pound their chest and boast that Russia’s nominal GDP is lower than places like Germany but they forget that industrial capital is what wins you wars, no matter how many rumors about the Russian army having to gut washing machines for parts you post online it won’t change the fact that they are winning a war of attrition against Ukraine and the other 50 or so countries sending them aid.

FluffyPotato ,

I guess they got pretty big museums

Commiejones ,
@Commiejones@hexbear.net avatar

your army steal washing machines and build the electronics of your equipment out of those.

Wait you still believe that was a real thing? It was projection. Missile and drones don’t need super powerful chips and China makes anything they do need.

You must not be following the war very closely. Russia is firing dozens of missiles and hundreds of suicide drones every week and the volume keeps rising.

FluffyPotato ,

They are calling their cannon fodder suicide drones now? That’s pretty fucked up even for Russia, more honest than normal at least.

Commiejones ,
@Commiejones@hexbear.net avatar

No clue about anything going on in the war gotcha.

FluffyPotato ,

You’re just salty you can’t get conscripted in the US into the meat grinder to build soviet union 2: electric boogaloo

Commiejones ,
@Commiejones@hexbear.net avatar

Are you smelling burnt toast? Your words do not make any sense in relation to each other or to the subject at hand. Do I need to call an ambulance? Are you having a stroke?

ExotiqueMatter , (edited )
@ExotiqueMatter@lemmygrad.ml avatar

no, actual drones, as in the teleguided thing with rotors that fly. they strap explosives on that and throw it at targets.

CascadeOfLight ,

https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/b0195d2f-572c-400a-898f-14e60aec4900.jpeg

Remind me, which Russian unit goes by “Збройні сили України”?

CascadeOfLight ,

https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/8ca63474-65b1-457c-8c05-17ea632c90c4.jpeg

Remind me, which Russian unit goes by “Збройні сили України”?

FluffyPotato ,

Hmm, not drunk enough or poorly equipped enough to be Russian troops, i guess they are saving this poor washing machine from Russian control.

CascadeOfLight ,

https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/1a234de4-c207-4f9f-b36f-e5f386157369.jpeg

Maybe they’re going to trade for some Russian bread and soup like these guys

radiofreeval ,
@radiofreeval@hexbear.net avatar

Liberating washing machines is the funniest shit ever

DivineChaos100 ,
@DivineChaos100@hexbear.net avatar

You’re close to getting it, keep going.

barsoap ,

Why else would the US constantly ship overpriced wunderwaffen that the Ukrainians can barely use due to lack of training

Is that why the US is sending ATACMS?

Where are the fucking ATACMS?

…I know, it’s of no use. Germany gave up on bullying you into shipping them so it’s safe to say that that ship has sailed. The US has been pussy-footing about since the beginning of the conflict.

While Western MSM underreport the average Nigeriens’ heartfelt desire to kick out the French

There’s no need to kick out the French. They readily leave when uninvited.

we’re close to the “US cutting their loses and leaving their allies out to dry while Hexbears repeat that quote from Kissinger” stage.

The US is fickle, news at 11. But that won’t stop the rest of Europe backing Ukraine, and then the US is probably going to chime in again as, like with Libya, it’s unthinkable for the Seppos for Europe to do anything on our own so that you can keep up the illusion that we’re doing what you want.

Classical American exceptionalism from the Tankie side, again.

PosadistInevitablity ,
@PosadistInevitablity@hexbear.net avatar

Europe is firmly vassilszed by the U.S.

That has been the case since the end of WW2. You are free to pretend operation Gladio never happened, but it did.

barsoap ,

Gladio? Yeah no shit the US is partly to blame for issues we have with fascists. How does that make us a vassal?

Tell you one thing if the US really is our overlord they really, really suck at controlling us, not losing trade wars against us, tons of stuff.

PosadistInevitablity ,
@PosadistInevitablity@hexbear.net avatar

We blew up the Nordstream pipeline and your own leaders can’t even admit they know that in public.

If that’s not subservient behavior, I’m not sure what is.

barsoap ,

Unlikely. Too much risk no advantage. Frankly speaking it’s more likely Greta Thunberg herself dove down there and gnawed through it.

EmotionalSupportLancet ,
@EmotionalSupportLancet@hexbear.net avatar

no advantage

What possible gain is there for Russia to blow up the off-ramp to the gas sanctions? Best case scenario for Russia in regards to the pipeline would have been it being reopened when Europe decided higher energy costs are no longer worth it.

Furthermore, here is a direct quote from Biden:

Speaking to reporters on February 7, Biden said: “If Russia invades, that means tanks or troops crossing the border of Ukraine again, there will no longer be a Nord Stream 2.” “We will bring an end to it,” the president said. A journalist asked Biden how he could do that since Germany was in control of the project, the president replied: “I promise you: We will be able to do it.”

The discussion started with a disagreement over the claims of subservience, right? Taking away the option to assert sovereignty over which sanctions are worth it is something that benefits the USA, hurts Europe, and takes away a potential advantage for Russia when the war inevitably ends someday and the practicality of buying from them instead of America (who charges more in addition to being less practical).

There would be no need to blow it up if Europe (Germany at bare minimum) was seen as completely subservient.

barsoap , (edited )

What possible gain is there for Russia to blow up the off-ramp to the gas sanctions?

I didn’t say Russia did it. I mean it probably did but Germany isn’t off the table. Unlike the US Germany actually has the stealth subs to pull it off undetected, but all in all Russia is still the more likely option I’d say. Of course, the presence of ships in that area etc. is only circumstantial evidence.

And in your analysis you’re making a crucial mistake, a mistake I myself made directly before the invasion when Russian soldiers were getting itchy underwear on Ukraine’s border because I thought if they’re going to attack, they’d already have done it: You assume Russia is a rational actor. Or, maybe better put, that it considers the same things as rational as you do.

Blowing up NS2 from Russia’s side could have the motive of a) knowing or suspecting that you don’t need it any more – though it also wouldn’t be terribly hard to repair which people are constantly overlooking and b) to provide an excuse to stop deliveries. Russia was playing around back at that time with NS1 maintenance and turbines being needed which were stuck in the sanctions regime etc, allthewhile Germany was filling its gas storage and nationalising Russian gas assets on German soil. They might’ve thought that they need to disable NS2 so Germany wouldn’t say “well if NS1 doesn’t work why don’t we use NS2”.

As to the US threats: What was probably meant was sanctions. It’s true that the US has levers it can pull to force such an issue. Those would come at a cost to the US itself but they’re there and can be pulled if the cost is deemed acceptable.

And btw one thing is for sure: Germany will never again buy any (noticable) amount of Russian gas. Even if they retreat to their own borders tomorrow that ship has sailed, Germany is in full swing to replace all that fossil infrastructure with ammonia and hydrogen. NS2 is dead no matter whether it’s operational or not.

Oh another thing is for sure: Ukraine is way more important to Russia, or maybe better put Putin, than some gas pipeline. Pretty much the moment Germany changed laws to legalise sending weapons into crisis territories, i.e. Ukraine, Russia knew where Germany stood, and will continue to stand. We don’t tend to flop easily and they know it. As such it also might simply have been Putin being stroppy, expecting Germany really to go for that Duginesque^1^ division of Europe between great powers things, with Germany taking a forceful lead in Europe. He did later on comment that “siding with Ukraine was Germany’s mistake of the millennium” or something to that effect. So much for Putin’s rationality, he’s living in a completely different world than us, thinking state relations and decisions work on fundamentally different principles than they actually do.

^1^ not really, Dugin never came up with that stuff he’s not a theorist he just rehashes nationalist bullshit those theories actually date back to the German Empire trolling the Russians to bait them it’s a long story.

EmotionalSupportLancet ,
@EmotionalSupportLancet@hexbear.net avatar

I didn’t say Russia did it. I should not have assumed

rationality I try to assume that actions are taken because the person doing it views it as rational. I don’t see the point in trying to understand the world only to write-off as irrational the actions taken under different material realities.

Unlike the US Germany actually has the stealth subs to pull it off undetected unrelated tangent, but I would be very interested in hearing more about German stealth subs and what makes them better. I don’t know much about the German navy.

Fair enough on the rest, it seems like a weak motive given that Russia could simply not send the gas or disable it on their end, but that’s my opinion not a fact.

Out of curiosity, where did you pick up “seppo”? I’ve only heard Australians use it before, maybe the occasional brit.

Agreed on Dugin being full of nationalist BS.

barsoap ,

I would be very interested in hearing more about German stealth subs and what makes them better.

Type 212, German-Italian, 214 is the export version without anti-magnetic dishwashers. I’m quipping, the exact differences aren’t really known but 212s do have antimagnetic diswashers and 214s are lacking some secret sauce but are still very capable.

Hydrogen fuel cell air independent drive, they’re not fast but very quiet, undetectable via active or passive sonar as well as magnetic sensors. Which makes them undetectable because there’s no such thing in the real world as gravimetric sensors (with range that doesn’t mean you’ve bumped into them anyway). Can traverse very shallow waters allowing combat divers to exit to shore, can also dive very deep because the Mediterranean is actually quite deep – strange combination of capabilities due to joint German/Italian design. Definitely capable of dropping two mines on pipes without anyone noticing.

By contrast US submarines are nuclear, meaning they’re glorified steam engines, quite loud. The Danes would have heard you enter the Skagerrak and then kept eyes on you, wondering WTF a nuclear deterrent submarine is doing in the Baltic Sea. Only alternative route would have been via the Kiel Kanal and… no.

Out of curiosity, where did you pick up “seppo”? I’ve only heard Australians use it before, maybe the occasional brit.

A particularly foul-mouthed gooseberry pudding.

EmotionalSupportLancet ,
@EmotionalSupportLancet@hexbear.net avatar

Thanks for the submarine lesson, that was an interesting read.

Redcat , (edited )

What? There was no risk and there was a ridiculous amount of money to be made. You have people in the intelligence community talking since the early 2000s how important it is to ‘empower poland, to drive a wedge between germany and russia’. The Americans had been threatening to ‘do something about’ the pipeline for years. And when they did it, the pan European media blackout made sure there was no risk involved. You yourself is a proof of that.

Meanwhile Europe will deindustrialize while paying hand over fist for American gas. They must also continue to dismantle their welfare state and spend that money in American weapons. But european governments don’t care, they are all personally invested in american investment funds shares anyway. Why else would the german foreign minister claim that the opinion of german voters are not relevant to her?

Vassals at least had a two way relationship with the King. This is borderline colonial.

barsoap ,

They threatened to blow it up for years without end and now you gotta buy natural gas from them at a premium.

What. We’re not buying US gas, not in any noticeable amount, that is. First of all usage was cut drastically (the likes of BASF could switch to other energy sources), most gas we still consume comes from Norway, LNG overall is only a tiny portion and of that most is Qatar.

If the US really did it then Germany is holding tight right now for Ukraine’s sake and there’s going to be hell to pay after the war.

Oh, and you gotta cut your welfare system and spend it all on american weapons too.

What. The only reason any amount of US hardware is on our shopping list is because Eurofighter GmbH doesn’t want to give the US access to data they’d need to certify US nukes for the Typhoon because industrial espionage. F-35s are already certified, available off the shelf, and our Tornado fleet really needs replacement but really, it’s just for the nukes: The EWAR Tornados are getting replaced not by F-35s, but more, freshly designed, Eurofighters. Down the line there’s going to be FCAS and likely French instead of US nukes. Now it’s not that I’m saying that France would be less prone to industrial espionage than the US, in fact they’re notorious for it, but they already have all that data through Airbus anyway.

Poland is going on a shopping spree for quite a lot of American hardware, but that’s another topic, also, focussed very much on airframes. Tanks and artillery are onshored South Korean systems (which are onshored German systems). France will never buy American because strategic autonomy, in fact they were right-out insulted when hearing Germany is going to buy F35s, but seem to have cooled down seeing that it’s a stop-gap solution.

Redcat , (edited )

As a third party can see, the risk to the Americans really was zero. Everything to gain, nothing to possibly lose. What, are the Germans gonna rebel somehow? They’ll fall over themselves to pretend the chains aren’t even there.

barsoap , (edited )

I mean revoking SAP licenses alone would crash the US economy so we don’t even have to wait until actual hardware that they depend on breaks.

Thing is Germany produces approximately everything there is under the sun and in a gazillion of areas we’re the only producers. Think a hospital’s logistics collapsing because they can’t get replacement parts for their pneumatic tube system, any more. The stuff you never think of, that’s what’s suddenly going to be missing, everywhere. Or when did you last think about how to get blood samples from bed to lab, drugs from pharmacy to bed, in a large hospital? Certainly not by email.

But realistically speaking the US would probably willingly pay damages and reparations. Materially or in some diplomatic quid pro quo manner and all of that is going to happen behind closed doors and we’ll know once records get unsealed.

Redcat , (edited )

But realistically speaking the US would probably willingly pay damages and reparations.

michael-laugh you really do live in an alternative reality. This is the most insane thing you’ve written in this entire conversation. And even so:

Materially or in some diplomatic quid pro quo manner and all of that is going to happen behind closed doors and we’ll know once records get unsealed.

It’s just a cover for how reality slowly sets in. You went from believing that the US would never attack Germany to saying that, actually, the US would totally pay reparations for bombing Nordstream. They’d just do it behind closed doors in order to save face.

You’ll get nothing, and you’ll be happy to pay all the damages yourself, my friend. And once the records are unsealed you’ll be in your 60s, swearing up and down that such skullduggery from the Americans are in the past.

barsoap ,

swearing up and down that such skullduggery from the Americans are in the past.

Why would I have a positive opinion of yanks in the future? They’re doing shit they get caught they deflect and whinge they get told privately some possible consequence and how to avoid it then they cave because said offer has been so well-crafted they can’t refuse. It’s called diplomacy. You know, the continuation of war by different means.

Redcat ,

Why would I have a positive opinion of yanks in the future?

Why ask about the future, when it’s a mystery in the present as well. You’re the one who thinks they’ll pay reparations for something they think you deserved.

You weren’t supposed to buy cheap resources from Russia. You never had the permission to.

barsoap ,

What, for making Russia pay for a pipeline that was never going to carry gas in the first place?

Or is this about not buying their gas, which we still don’t do? What are they doing about that? Trying to impose tariffs on steel and hurting their own economy in the process because they can’t produce high-grade steels?

Redcat ,

they would never attack germany. its too risky.

ok there were no risks involved. even if they bombed the pipeline, they will surely pay reparations.

ok they won’t ever pay reparations. but its not like they have to. we were never going to use the pipeline anyways!

i wonder what’s next

barsoap ,

Pretending to not give a fuck while waiting for an opportunity.

fuser ,
@fuser@quex.cc avatar

wunderwaffen

too good a word not to research… comes from WWII, naturally…

panjandrum (British) - two wheels connected by a sturdy, drum-like axle, with rockets on the wheels to propel it forward. Packed with explosives, it was supposed to charge toward the enemy defenses, smashing into them and exploding, creating a breach large enough for a tank to pass through. But when it was tested on an otherwise peaceful English beach, things didn’t go quite as planned. The 70 slow-burning cordite rockets attached to the two 10-foot steel wheels sparked into action, and for about 20 seconds it was quite impressive. Until the rockets started to dislodge and fly off in all directions, sending a dog chasing after one of them and generals running for cover. The rest was sheer chaos, as the Panjandrum charged around the beach, completely out of control. Unsurprisingly, the Panjandrum never saw battle. the panjamdrum two wheels connected by a sturdy, drum-like axle, with rockets on the wheels to propel it forward

The Goliath Tracked Mine (German)The tracked vehicle could carry 60kg of explosives and was steered remotely using a joystick control box attached to the rear of the Goliath by 650m of triple-strand cable. Two of the strands accelerated and manoeuvred the Goliath, while the third was used to trigger the detonation.

Each Goliath had to be disposable, as each was built specifically to be blown up along with an enemy target. The first models were powered by an electric motor, but these proved difficult to repair on the battlefield, and at 3,000 Reichsmarks were not exactly cost effective. As a result, later models (the SdKfz 303) used a simpler, more reliable gasoline engine.

Being sent back to the drawing board is a disgrace usually reserved for weapons that never saw battlefield action. Goliaths did see combat and were deployed on all German fronts beginning in the spring of 1942. Their role in the action was usually nugatory, however, having been rendered immobile by uncompromising terrain or deactivated by cunning enemy soldiers who had cut their command cables.

solidiers standing with several small goliath remotely controlled (by wire) explosive devices

The bat bomb (American) Shortly after the attack on Pearl Harbor, a Pennsylvania dentist named Lytle S. Adams contacted the White House with a plan of retaliation: bat bombs.

The plan involved dropping a bomb containing more than 1000 compartments, each containing a hibernating bat attached to a timed incendiary device. A bomber would then drop the principal bomb over Japan at dawn and the bats would be released mid-flight, dispersing into the roofs and attics of buildings over a 20- to 40-mile radius. The timed incendiary devices would then ignite, setting fire to Japanese cities.

Despite the somewhat outlandish proposal, the National Research Defense Committee took the idea seriously. Thousands of Mexican free-tailed bats were captured (they were, for some reason, considered the best option) and tiny napalm incendiary devices were built for them to carry. A complicated release system was developed and tests were carried out. The tests, however, revealed an array of technical problems, especially when some bats escaped prematurely and blew up a hangar and a general’s car.

In December 1943, the Marine Corps took over the project, running 30 demonstrations at a total cost of $2 million. Eventually, however, the program was canceled, probably because the U.S. had shifted its focus onto the development of the atomic bomb.

picture of bat attached to small explosive device

Gustav rail gun (German)The railway-mounted weapon was the largest gun ever built. Fully assembled, it weighed in at 1,344 tons, and was four stories tall, 20 feet wide, and 140 feet long. It required a 500-man crew to operate it, and had to be moved to be fully disassembled, as the railroad tracks could not bear its weight in transit. It required 54 hours to assemble and prepare for firing.

The bore diameter was just under 3 feet and required 3,000 pounds of smokeless powder charge to fire two different projectiles. The first was a 10,584-pound high explosive shell that could produce a crater 30 feet in diameter. The other was a 16,540-pound concrete-piercing shell, capable of punching through 264 feet of concrete. Both projectiles could be shot, with relatively correct aim, from more than 20 miles away.

The Gustav Gun was used in Sevastopol in the Soviet Union during Operation Barbarossa and destroyed various targets, including a munitions facility in the bay. It was also briefly used during the Warsaw Uprising in Poland. The Gustav Gun was captured by the Allies before the end of World War II and dismantled for scrap. The second massive rail gun, the Dora, was disabled to keep it from falling into Soviet hands near the end of the War.

https://quex.cc/pictrs/image/a6f0e1c1-5077-4c37-ac5d-b4ceeb1c1a08.pnghttps://quex.cc/pictrs/image/dea45e4e-7922-4ca7-8ca2-2dd5a9a4ce8f.png

oce , (edited )
@oce@jlai.lu avatar

Manichean views don’t explain enough, although they do create engagement, which may be the primary goal.

A less angry explanation is that it is all of that at the same time. They want to help Ukraine’s democracy, weaken a historical authoritarian enemy and feed their military–industrial complex. It’s a balance of all of that in the interest of the people that elected them, like in any democracy. If something gets out of balance, yes they will probably retract their support before it hurts their country in some way, like any other country would. It’s just Realpolitik.

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