I love this idea. Very publically shameful and the physical activity would beat him down in a way no jail cell could. Hope the judge considers this, seems like a proper punishment.
Yeah if you're already not going to put him in jail because of political reasons I don't see how you're going to realistically compel him to do this. He says no, then what, you tack on more community service that he never performs?
Just to put the timeline straight: Marchan issued the gag order, trump retweeted 10 things that might have violated it, Marchan said that was wrong, trump said he hadn't violated it, Marchan scheduled a hearing. Before the hearing occurred, trump again retweeted ?3? things that might have violated it. Marchan holds the hearing, finds trump in contempt on 9 of the 10 items - it's at this point that trump's retweets are established as mostly violating the gag order.
Today's hearing was in regard to the ?3? retweets made prior to the first hearing. He's getting a fine today because the [comical] argument would've been made that, at the time of those, ?3? retweets (before the first hearing), he still believed his actions weren't in contempt.
I'm not sure if he's done anything since that first hearing that might violate the gag order, but that's when the clock started ticking. And, unfortunately, it only started ticking for those kind of violations. He might decide to try smirking finger-guns next, and argue that he was only just enthusiastically greeting an old friend :/
Yeah it bothers me so much that ppl don't realize how the legal process works. If merchan makes any mistakes, his decision will get overturned. I want trump convicted and I want him to be unable to change that.
To be fair, he was supposed to put up over $400 million to prevent asset forfeiture with a hard deadline. He ended up posting bond for about a quarter of that, nearly a month after the deadline with no consequences.
A lot of people are rightfully skeptical that he'll never face consequences for his illegal acts.
Yeah it bothers me so much that ppl don’t realize how the legal process works.
I want the legal system to work the same for Trump as it would for me. Is that so much to ask? How many times do you suppose I could defy the court before ending up with either 1) a fine that was sizable enough to actually matter to me or 2) jail time?
The law in NY defines how much the fines are and how long someone could be held in jail. It would be illegal for the judge to issue a fine larger than what he's been issuing, which would give Trump a reason to go to a higher court to seek Merchan's removal, or at the very least delay the case
I understand you feel angry, but Merchan has been clear with Trump that jail is on the table moving forward, and I completely respect him not jumping the gun and throwing Trump in jail on a whim. By giving Trump ample opportunities to correct his behavior with warnings of jail time for future violations, he's setting it up so Trump's legal team will have no basis to argue Trump didn't deserve this when they try to remove Merchan from the case or try to appeal
I understand that but - is jail time not always on the table when you repeatedly ignore orders from a judge in their own courtroom? Does it need to be TEN TIMES to qualify for not jumping the gun? And do you really believe that "next time" he will get jail? (I do not.)
Meh.
2 legal systems. That's what's on display here. Whether there is justification or not. I don't fault you for accepting the justification, but this is proof there is one system for the rest of us (which will chew us up and derail our lives over relatively minor infractions), and one system for folks like Trump. (who will die of old age living a 1% lifestyle without ever going to jail, IMO.)
My frustration is not directed at you, you are just the unfortunate recipient.
is jail time not always on the table when you repeatedly ignore orders from a judge in their own courtroom?
Yes. That’s how NY law on this works.
OK, so if jail is always on the table, and this is the TENTH time he's been found in contempt, how would it have been "jumping the gun" to jail him after say the 8th time? Or how about the third time? Would I get away with three contempt findings and no jail time under the same judge?
There was one hearing covering several instances. All those get bundled together as a set of $1000 fines each. There was then a second hearing (which is what is being cited in OP), which covered more instances, but they all happened before the first hearing. So it's a second set of $1000 fines. If there's contempt hearing for something that happened after the first hearing, then it's jail time.
Which is how the system should work for anyone, excepting the size of the fine compared to networth.
I feel really doubtful that it would work that way for me, (or for any rando off the street) but you seem very certain, so that's probably as far as we can expect this conversation to go. Thanks for the discussion though. :)
Well, it would work for you, because NY law is very specific about how this works.
I've been avoiding requesting a citation up to now, but can you quote me the bit that says any random person can be fined for this many infractions (specifically willfully failing to follow directives from the judge in a way that would be considered contempt) without expecting jail for it? I've got no problem admitting I'm wrong, but as of yet I don't feel convinced that I am.
Edit - specifically the part which stipulates that this should result in one hearing, not "several" -
There was one hearing covering several instances. All those get bundled together as a set of $1000 fines each.
The judge from that case considers if there should be criminal or civil penalties, and concludes that you can't just hastily jump to criminal penalties:
Criminal contempt, on the other hand, involves vindication of an offense against public justice and is utilized to protect the dignity of the judicial system and to compel respect for its mandates ( King v Barnes, 113 N.Y. 476). Inasmuch as the objective is deterrence of disobedience of judicial mandates, the penalty imposed is punitive in nature ( State of New York v Unique Ideas, supra). Although the line between the two types of contempt may be difficult to draw in a given case, and the same act may be punishable as both a civil and a criminal contempt, the element which serves to elevate a contempt from civil to criminal is the level of willfulness with which the conduct is carried out (compare Judiciary Law, § 753, subd A, par 3 [civil contempt], with id., § 750, subd A, par 3 [criminal contempt]; see, e.g., Sentry Armored Courier Corp. v New York City Off-Track Betting Corp., 75 A.D.2d 344). It is clear, in the present case, that the record does not support a finding of the willfulness necessary to hold respondents, particularly the Commissioner of Health, in criminal contempt. Accordingly, our further discussion is limited to the elements of civil contempt.
And then proscribes a fine, with the amount to be split up among the petitioners. This being from 1983, I'm not sure what the fine amount was at the time, but there are several petitioners making up several infractions here.
Accordingly, petitioners' motion to hold respondents Commissioner of Health, Beth Rifka, Inc., and Sally Gearhart in contempt is granted, and respondents are fined in the total amount of $4,000 for which they shall be deemed jointly and severally liable to be paid to petitioners as follows: $2,500 to be paid to petitioner Louise McCormick; $1,000 to be paid to petitioner Maria Bonsignore; $500 to be paid to petitioner Theresa Coppola.
Does that very old case (which seems a really odd basis for this seemingly minor point of law - and I'm skeptical this 1983 decision is weighing on this judges mind) also stipulate that someone should get only a single hearing for multiple infractions?
I still don't see the logic anywhere showing "hey, we'll let folks do this OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER but it would be jumping the gun to do more than slap his wrist until they've done it, say, twelve times."
This just seems like an example of a judge being lenient in a specific case, and not especially relevant beyond that.
Really it doesn't matter. He'll do it again, and I'll be shown correct when they fine him another nickel, or he'll do it again, and I'll be wrong, but he'll actually be inconvenienced by his actions by a very short stint in jail so that will be OK, I guess.
Edit - with no snark intended, this is seeming less true, not more, as we continue.
No, last time he stated that he could. This time he reinforced his stance against jailing a former president, but made it clear he would if another violation occurs. He’s playing it by the book.
The infractions being cited on this second go all happened before the first hearing had happened. He's not moving any goalposts. Infractions that happen after the first hearing do have jail as the result.
These infractions came before he was fined the first time, but after the imposing of the gag order. Got to have him break the gag order after the judge says he'll throw him in jail in order to get causality right.
Said Merchan (per NBC News), "The last thing I want to do is to put you in jail. You are the former president of the United States, and possibly the next president as well. There are many reasons why incarceration is truly a last resort for you.”
I don't care what job the defendant used to have or what job he's applying for, and neither should Judge Merchan.
He MUST be treated like any other defendant or we don't have a functioning democracy or a justice system.
Referencing his previous job or status as a political candidate is actually 'special treatment' and the judge absolutely should not be doing that. trump is a criminal defendant in a court of law, and the court of law is supposed to apply the law equally the same to all citizens.
Trump's nonsense immunity claim doesn't even apply here. He is not president. He has been found in criminal contempt for actions he took when not president.
I am 100% certain that everyone is handling him with kid gloves because they know that treating him like any other defendant would likely result in violence. Well, guess what? There's gonna be violence in November (and/or January and beyond) no matter what the election results are. Trump loses? Violence because "stolen election." Trump wins? Violence because "Now we can hurt all the people we've always wanted to hurt."
It's not a matter of "if." It's "when" and "to what extent." Justifiably jailing Trump controls the "when," making the response to "to what extent" more effective. It would also force Trump and his menials' hands before the election.
It turns out America doesn't just negotiate with terrorists; it in fact completely abandons any illusion of democracy, or a justice system, under the threat of terrorism — as long as it's an oligarch from the private elite boys club.
You're absolutely right that they are treating him with kid gloves due to the very real potential for violence. It is my belief they are trying to curb that guaranteed damage as much as possible. I am in agreement that he should have the book thrown at him and get special treatment for a weekend in a jail cell. Let him bring his slippers.
BUT...I do get it. Assuming we're right and they are trying to curb that violence, this does make sense. It just fucking sucks.
Honestly, I read the judge's statement as a sort of appeal to Trump's ego and integrity. Like a, "Come on bro, you were the president, don't make me throw you in jail,jackass."
It's mostly performative, so the judge can say he didn't want to when he eventually gets has to.
